The Existence of Creativity

This is a very casual conversation of me and my friend who psychology. We talked about the topic of the Existence of Creativity on 29-03-2009. We had our non-official conclusion on the topic. It's really casual, but I think it's interesting so I share.
My initial point is that Creativity does not exist. Turns out that we find something imaginative.
firelemon = Me
Geoffardy = Geoffardy

fire lemon says:

u may only want to focus on the Conclusion part

feel free

feel free to kill me

Geoffardy says:

then how do you explain abstract in relation to logic and reasoning?

fire lemon says:

random accessing experience?

a way of brain functioning?

Geoffardy says:

so are abstract thoughts part of creativity?

fire lemon says:

stimulated by past experience and .....

u know, i'm messed up too, but just didn't feel right about the whole concept

i have doubt

it's like asking a baby to create the shape Triangle

but without seeing Line, how can they 'create' Triangle

and is it really possible that the image Triangle suddenly jump out from the baby's mind?

i was thinking that everything we have is from the earth

what improve human history is the Accident

Geoffardy says:

i see what you mean

you're saying that people create things through pre-existing knowledge

fire lemon says:

yes

Geoffardy says:

what about our ancestors?

fire lemon says:

Accident

what i mentioned in my paper

the Accident contact with the physical world

Geoffardy says:

which is pretty much "trial and error" that you sorta rejected?

fire lemon says:

nono

trial and error is the God

i mean sorry

i mean the MOST IMPORTANT THING

Geoffardy says:

hmmm

fire lemon says:

um um what do u think

Geoffardy says:

do you think babies dream?

fire lemon says:

wow...

could be

but what about before born?

Geoffardy says:

if they do, does it mean there's creativity involved?

fire lemon says:

but dreaming could be about experience

past experience

isn't that what u guys say?

dream is the re-organising data in brain

Geoffardy says:

yeah but newborn babies, without data, how do they dream?

fire lemon says:

do they hear at the time they born?

it could be made of sounds only

just like the way a blind person can't dream Images

but sounds

but once he's not blind anymore, he starts to see images

Geoffardy says:

that's not totally right

let me look that up

fire lemon says:

okok

it has been bothering me, i have a lot of questions about the mind and body

and how we experience the world

Geoffardy says:

ok

fire lemon says:

haha

Geoffardy says:

blind people who're born blind do not see images in their dreams

fire lemon says:

yea~!

Geoffardy says:

they experience the other sensory information but not visual

HOWEVER

if a newborn had seen something, light or shapes or humans, and then becomes blind, that newborn will still see images in his/her dreams

even when he grows up to be an adult

fire lemon says:

yea!

Geoffardy says:

and that image can be something different, or created basing on 1 or 2 visual experiences

fire lemon says:

so his experience will be like 'this' little, so the 'creativity' will be almost none

yea!

Geoffardy says:

so if he has seen a straight line, cos he's been looking at the ceiling where there's a string hung around, i'm not surprised that he can imagine a triangle from it

fire lemon says:

really!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

right

but still

Geoffardy says:

all it takes is just something

fire lemon says:

the triangle is made of lines

Geoffardy says:

as minimal as it can be

fire lemon says:

he can enver made something out of line

Geoffardy says:

although they can't see

but they can probably imagine it in their head

let's say if you take them by the hand and trace out a circle with their finger, chances are they can imagine how a circle looks like in their head... now that image is created only through imagination/creativity

fire lemon says:

wait,

but what if we minimize the case to nothing but a line in head

nothign else

a baby with a line in head

with no more knowledge or contact with anyone else

forever

Geoffardy says:

what i said before was for someone who's born blind

fire lemon says:

he's still undergoing Mental Trial and Error only

Geoffardy says:

just ask them to imagine

and they can imagine

fire lemon says:

o....

o.......

but what can they imagine?

imagination must base on Experience

unless he can Create

unless Real Creativity exist

Geoffardy says:

imagination is based on some experience

not all of it

fire lemon says:

i mean the illusion that we 'can create' is that we have experienced the world so much

Geoffardy says:

you don't have to see an object to imagine it

i can describe it to you by words, and you can probably form it in your head

fire lemon says:

but Language contains Experience

Language is so an artifical thing

one needs to understand the world before understanding Language

Language is the summary of human Experience gathered through history

not unless we have direct brain communication

Geoffardy says:

language doesn't contain visual information for a blind person

so it has nothing to do with him being able to see in his head

fire lemon says:

but how can a born blind people going to know what is a line

Geoffardy says:

as i said

all you need to do is to ask them to imagine

take them by the hand, hold their finger, and trace a straight line with that finger

fire lemon says:

right

Geoffardy says:

and they can imagine it

fire lemon says:

but then u're importing Spatial imformantion to a blind

what if u are not allowed to give them a Spatial Experience to him?

Geoffardy says:

ask them to imagine a 3D object in their head, they can do it

fire lemon says:

there's a book called Johnny Got A Gun something

Geoffardy says:

spatial information is only relevant to a sighted person

what we're giving him is tactile information, the sense of touch

but for him, a blind person, to translate tactile information to visual information, it needs a lot of creativity and imagine on his part

it's creative because it doesn't necessarily mean that he's imagining the exact same thing

because he can't see colour

fire lemon says:

o~~~~~~

Geoffardy says:

but the fact that he's imagine something

fire lemon says:

right i heard of that one too

they tell blue to him

Geoffardy says:

something that resembles to the object in question

now that's creativity

fire lemon says:

but he imagined something else

Geoffardy says:

yeah

fire lemon says:

that's cool

Geoffardy says:

there's research that says that the part where visual information is processed in the brain is activated when a blind person is asked to trace or feel something

fire lemon says:

how can he create that colour...

Geoffardy says:

yeah

fire lemon says:

haha

Geoffardy says:

it's pure imagination

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYR-4T3M6B4-7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f4f9402e71f622441cd863aa23c3ed8b

fire lemon says:

o...... wait!!!!!!!!

wait!!!!

but it's not fia

fair

coz u know we have cases saying that some genius can see colours when they are calculating

is it possible that it is the overlayin of the brain process that allow the blind to do that?

Geoffardy says:

those are not genius

fire lemon says:

can one argue that 5 senses are sepearated?

or in fact just one big experience?

Geoffardy says:

they are savants, a form of autism 自閉綜合症

fire lemon says:

o~~

Geoffardy says:

5 senses are separated in different parts of the brain

but there's an associative network that connects them

fire lemon says:

shit... i'm trying to argue the brain

but what if colours is already pre-exist in human's brain?

before born

Geoffardy says:

nah

fire lemon says:

the logic of human, the logic of the structure of the eyeball

it's just the mapping is different

Geoffardy says:

u can't see in your mother's womb cos it's so dark

nah

you can't even open your eyes how can u see colour

fire lemon says:

no, i'm just the biological fact of the eyes to inspires colour

Geoffardy says:

u wouldn't even know how to breathe cos u didnt need to

lol

fire lemon says:

no.... right

Geoffardy says:

no, i don't think a baby has prior knowledge of the world before they're born

unless they are reincarnated 投胎

fire lemon says:

haha cool

Geoffardy says:

then we'll have to ask 閻羅王why he/she didn't drink the 孟婆湯

fire lemon says:

HEY!!!!!

HEY!!! WTF!!!

wait@@@@

see!!!!

Can someone imagine the 6th sense?

tell me

Geoffardy says:

how totally

yeah totally

fire lemon says:

um.......................................

Geoffardy says:

i felt someone beside me all the time

lol

fire lemon says:

hahaha

Geoffardy says:

and girls claim to have it

fire lemon says:

in this sense our theory will go further that human are able to create the 6 7 8 th sense?

that it is possible*

but Feeling could be a form of the Touching sense

6th 7th 8th mean something out of the 5 senses

u see, you're trying to use Touch to inspire a blind to 'see'

in this sense, we human will be able to inspire 6th sense with 5 sense

as a result, it proves the existence of 6th sense

the N th senses

this conversation is just purely inspiring.. i'll save it..

hey, but after all, we still can not prove that Creativiity can exist on 1 individual sense

the example u have given is 1 sense inspired by another sense

doesn't mean Vision can create Vision by itself