http://www.scribd.com/doc/14750411/Imaginary-2
Flynn + Yui
29.4.09
28.4.09
23.4.09
Sustainability / Trans-disciplinarity:
A concern for people and environments between confusing terminology and outdated approaches
Ashraf M. Salama, Ph.D.
Professor of Architecture
INTBAU: Sustainability / Trans-disciplinarity, A Concern for People and Environments between Confusing Terminology and Outdated Approaches
The proposed approach adopts the view that sustainability cannot be addressed as one subject; it includes different disciplines and issues requiring systemic thinking. A fuller understanding can be achieved by investigating the key issues simultaneously; not dealing with them separately each at a time. It is envisioned that this approach would include technology and engineering issues; organizational, human and management issues; functional, behavioral and cultural issues; financial issues; and urban and landscape issues. It is also believed that these issues should be integrated within a political, legislative, comprehensive process while learning from the past; the vernacular, the traditional, and the development practices that acquired meaning over time.
(...)
The Existence of Creativity
This is a very casual conversation of me and my friend who psychology. We talked about the topic of the Existence of Creativity on 29-03-2009. We had our non-official conclusion on the topic. It's really casual, but I think it's interesting so I share.
My initial point is that Creativity does not exist. Turns out that we find something imaginative.
firelemon = Me
Geoffardy = Geoffardy
fire lemon says:
u may only want to focus on the Conclusion part
feel free
feel free to kill me
Geoffardy says:
then how do you explain abstract in relation to logic and reasoning?
fire lemon says:
random accessing experience?
a way of brain functioning?
Geoffardy says:
so are abstract thoughts part of creativity?
fire lemon says:
stimulated by past experience and .....
u know, i'm messed up too, but just didn't feel right about the whole concept
i have doubt
it's like asking a baby to create the shape Triangle
but without seeing Line, how can they 'create' Triangle
and is it really possible that the image Triangle suddenly jump out from the baby's mind?
i was thinking that everything we have is from the earth
what improve human history is the Accident
Geoffardy says:
i see what you mean
you're saying that people create things through pre-existing knowledge
fire lemon says:
yes
Geoffardy says:
what about our ancestors?
fire lemon says:
Accident
what i mentioned in my paper
the Accident contact with the physical world
Geoffardy says:
which is pretty much "trial and error" that you sorta rejected?
fire lemon says:
nono
trial and error is the God
i mean sorry
i mean the MOST IMPORTANT THING
Geoffardy says:
hmmm
fire lemon says:
um um what do u think
Geoffardy says:
do you think babies dream?
fire lemon says:
wow...
could be
but what about before born?
Geoffardy says:
if they do, does it mean there's creativity involved?
fire lemon says:
but dreaming could be about experience
past experience
isn't that what u guys say?
dream is the re-organising data in brain
Geoffardy says:
yeah but newborn babies, without data, how do they dream?
fire lemon says:
do they hear at the time they born?
it could be made of sounds only
just like the way a blind person can't dream Images
but sounds
but once he's not blind anymore, he starts to see images
Geoffardy says:
that's not totally right
let me look that up
fire lemon says:
okok
it has been bothering me, i have a lot of questions about the mind and body
and how we experience the world
Geoffardy says:
ok
fire lemon says:
haha
Geoffardy says:
blind people who're born blind do not see images in their dreams
fire lemon says:
yea~!
Geoffardy says:
they experience the other sensory information but not visual
HOWEVER
if a newborn had seen something, light or shapes or humans, and then becomes blind, that newborn will still see images in his/her dreams
even when he grows up to be an adult
fire lemon says:
yea!
Geoffardy says:
and that image can be something different, or created basing on 1 or 2 visual experiences
fire lemon says:
so his experience will be like 'this' little, so the 'creativity' will be almost none
yea!
Geoffardy says:
so if he has seen a straight line, cos he's been looking at the ceiling where there's a string hung around, i'm not surprised that he can imagine a triangle from it
fire lemon says:
really!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!
right
but still
Geoffardy says:
all it takes is just something
fire lemon says:
the triangle is made of lines
Geoffardy says:
as minimal as it can be
fire lemon says:
he can enver made something out of line
Geoffardy says:
although they can't see
but they can probably imagine it in their head
let's say if you take them by the hand and trace out a circle with their finger, chances are they can imagine how a circle looks like in their head... now that image is created only through imagination/creativity
fire lemon says:
wait,
but what if we minimize the case to nothing but a line in head
nothign else
a baby with a line in head
with no more knowledge or contact with anyone else
forever
Geoffardy says:
what i said before was for someone who's born blind
fire lemon says:
he's still undergoing Mental Trial and Error only
Geoffardy says:
just ask them to imagine
and they can imagine
fire lemon says:
o....
o.......
but what can they imagine?
imagination must base on Experience
unless he can Create
unless Real Creativity exist
Geoffardy says:
imagination is based on some experience
not all of it
fire lemon says:
i mean the illusion that we 'can create' is that we have experienced the world so much
Geoffardy says:
you don't have to see an object to imagine it
i can describe it to you by words, and you can probably form it in your head
fire lemon says:
but Language contains Experience
Language is so an artifical thing
one needs to understand the world before understanding Language
Language is the summary of human Experience gathered through history
not unless we have direct brain communication
Geoffardy says:
language doesn't contain visual information for a blind person
so it has nothing to do with him being able to see in his head
fire lemon says:
but how can a born blind people going to know what is a line
Geoffardy says:
as i said
all you need to do is to ask them to imagine
take them by the hand, hold their finger, and trace a straight line with that finger
fire lemon says:
right
Geoffardy says:
and they can imagine it
fire lemon says:
but then u're importing Spatial imformantion to a blind
what if u are not allowed to give them a Spatial Experience to him?
Geoffardy says:
ask them to imagine a 3D object in their head, they can do it
fire lemon says:
there's a book called Johnny Got A Gun something
Geoffardy says:
spatial information is only relevant to a sighted person
what we're giving him is tactile information, the sense of touch
but for him, a blind person, to translate tactile information to visual information, it needs a lot of creativity and imagine on his part
it's creative because it doesn't necessarily mean that he's imagining the exact same thing
because he can't see colour
fire lemon says:
o~~~~~~
Geoffardy says:
but the fact that he's imagine something
fire lemon says:
right i heard of that one too
they tell blue to him
Geoffardy says:
something that resembles to the object in question
now that's creativity
fire lemon says:
but he imagined something else
Geoffardy says:
yeah
fire lemon says:
that's cool
Geoffardy says:
there's research that says that the part where visual information is processed in the brain is activated when a blind person is asked to trace or feel something
fire lemon says:
how can he create that colour...
Geoffardy says:
yeah
fire lemon says:
haha
Geoffardy says:
it's pure imagination
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6SYR-4T3M6B4-7&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=f4f9402e71f622441cd863aa23c3ed8b
fire lemon says:
o...... wait!!!!!!!!
wait!!!!
but it's not fia
fair
coz u know we have cases saying that some genius can see colours when they are calculating
is it possible that it is the overlayin of the brain process that allow the blind to do that?
Geoffardy says:
those are not genius
fire lemon says:
can one argue that 5 senses are sepearated?
or in fact just one big experience?
Geoffardy says:
they are savants, a form of autism 自閉綜合症
fire lemon says:
o~~
Geoffardy says:
5 senses are separated in different parts of the brain
but there's an associative network that connects them
fire lemon says:
shit... i'm trying to argue the brain
but what if colours is already pre-exist in human's brain?
before born
Geoffardy says:
nah
fire lemon says:
the logic of human, the logic of the structure of the eyeball
it's just the mapping is different
Geoffardy says:
u can't see in your mother's womb cos it's so dark
nah
you can't even open your eyes how can u see colour
fire lemon says:
no, i'm just the biological fact of the eyes to inspires colour
Geoffardy says:
u wouldn't even know how to breathe cos u didnt need to
lol
fire lemon says:
no.... right
Geoffardy says:
no, i don't think a baby has prior knowledge of the world before they're born
unless they are reincarnated 投胎
fire lemon says:
haha cool
Geoffardy says:
then we'll have to ask 閻羅王why he/she didn't drink the 孟婆湯
fire lemon says:
HEY!!!!!
HEY!!! WTF!!!
wait@@@@
see!!!!
Can someone imagine the 6th sense?
tell me
Geoffardy says:
how totally
yeah totally
fire lemon says:
um.......................................
Geoffardy says:
i felt someone beside me all the time
lol
fire lemon says:
hahaha
Geoffardy says:
and girls claim to have it
fire lemon says:
in this sense our theory will go further that human are able to create the 6 7 8 th sense?
that it is possible*
but Feeling could be a form of the Touching sense
6th 7th 8th mean something out of the 5 senses
u see, you're trying to use Touch to inspire a blind to 'see'
in this sense, we human will be able to inspire 6th sense with 5 sense
as a result, it proves the existence of 6th sense
the N th senses
this conversation is just purely inspiring.. i'll save it..
hey, but after all, we still can not prove that Creativiity can exist on 1 individual sense
the example u have given is 1 sense inspired by another sense
doesn't mean Vision can create Vision by itself
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